By Slanted Light

****Iit’s funny how the concept of loyalty to the state/nation sounds more chilling (to me) than loyalty to one’s queen and country

Actually, this kind of makes sense to me - the queen has a face, whether we're ever likely to meet her, and despite the fact that we are highly unlikely to ever have this sort of chat with her (!) She is a real person. ….Whereas the concept of state, or nation is far more abstract, nothing to grasp there. And in fact that is scary, because that concept is whatever we make of it, and since its not us directly making it, but some faceless "other" its arguably natural to feel threatened by that...

***Yes, that's all true. Plus the fact that for me (and probably you), the Queen is familiar, safe territory, what we know. And for me the concept of 'the state' carries with it connotations such as: state tyranny; state terror French Revolution-style; state apparatus; citizenship vs. loyal subjects of the crown; Kafka; etc. All alien concepts.

And then I get into the whole other realm of - well, if what I just said about country is true, then why aren't I snug at home in Australia, instead of living in Alaska, and missing England?!

****Maybe because 'home' always seems more appealing when you're thousands of miles away?

***So if you weren’t thinking of things like loyalty and friendship as ideals what would you consider to be an ideal I wonder? And do you mean at a personal or more collective level?

Gosh. Such a question. *thinks very hard, then rubs head* If I tried to make a list I'd be bound to miss something out and feel bad, so perhaps something boiled down... I suppose my ideal is the freedom for everyone to do what they would like, or need to do, without hurting others in this freedom, and at the same time having the security of knowing that should they fall on bad times they will not be allowed to hurt or die on their own.

***And the Rule of Law? I don't think you can ever hope to attain the goals of democracy and (relative) freedom unless you're living within the framework of a non-corrupt, law abiding society.

Is that a personal or collective level? Do they necessarily separate?

I want the freedom that I described, but to have it truly then everyone has to have it. If I had it on my own it would be power, instead of freedom. Which I suppose is some other people's ideal... Unless you're going to go hide out in the bush and live off the land, there really isn't any way of excluding the collective from our ideals, is there?

****I think I meant state, corporate or groups when talking about 'collective' as opposed to an individual freedom.. i.e. freedoms of big business, pressure groups, trade unions, governments, etc. as opposed to individual freedom . For example, the balance of freedoms between the right of the (individual) commuter to reach his destination vs. the right of transport workers to strike and possibly interrupt the commuter’s journey.

(And I’m sure you’ve sussed the fact that I’m just thinking aloud here, don’t really know what I mean, but writing things down really does help to concentrate the mind).

Yes, me too. And its nice to bounce as well. Let me know when you get bored!

*****Bored??? If I want ‘bored’ I’ll try one of the lists!