Think-y things about zines and fic and all

[byslantedlight]

Wandering around lj as you do, I came across some interesting discussions/thoughts about zines and fic and different types of access to such things, and I'm all curious now about what Pros-y people think about them, so... I thought I'd post here! Plus, coffee-break! Plus, I'm in a very think-y Pros-y mood this week, what with all the brilliant discussions etc going on at the moment. So here's another one! *g*

There's a poll here, which asks an interesting question: If I was to take all my fanfic off the internet, and offer it in downloadable e-zine form instead, available for $20 (US$ I presume, so about £14 at today's exchange rate) - would you buy it?. It's not specific to the poll-er, it's a hypothetical question - if people did that, would other people spend money on it?

There actually are sites offering downloadable Prosfic zines, which is all fab and good because I love the Oblique zines that are available online to print if I want, and I like having the Dialj Bound zines on my shelves ready to pull off and read while curled up in bed (little bairns that they are... *g*), but other people are charging money for downloadable zines (you have to click on "The Professionals" in the sidebar to see the Pros zines in question - some are downloadable, some aren't), which strikes me as a little different to selling/"distributing" paper zines, because there's presumably no overhead to letting people download a zine - at least no more than anyone else in Pros/fandom pays for their internet connections... *g* So where does that US$8.00 go? What are people actually paying that distributor for doing? Cos isn't the whole point that distributors of fandom don't actually make any profit from it, cos that would be illegal? Do the authors see any of that money? Artists? Wouldn't that be illegal too? Isn't it going against the whole spirit of fandom for distributors/publishers/authors etc to do that?

I can go with the idea that paper zine publishers are paying for printing etc costs (although... well, never mind that now, it's a whole other controversial discussion!) and that it would cost someone to print out a zine, and besides it's fab to have the cover and the art and the binding, and that's what the publisher has done for us - put it all together (presumably they don't get paid for this bit, that's fannish love like the rest of us) and had it printed and bound (the bit that they have to pay a professional printer for and thus are charging us for). But putting a fic/zine up online, which alot of people do for free - why are they charging for that? And in the case that I've linked to above, I don't believe that you can print off the e-zine even if you do pay for it, because they're security protected only to be available on screen. So..?

I dunno - what do other people think of this? Is there a difference between distributing things via paper publication and via e-fic publication? How are the authors affected by this (are any of you reading this? *g*)? I know there's at least one zine being sold at that website that I've hoped might "time out" and come online one day, because I really can't afford full-priced zines very often, but if it's now available for download, then will that ever happen? Did the authors give permission for their zines to be sold as downloads? What's going on..?

Obviously this must be happening in a much broader context in other fandoms, people charging money for downloadable fic, or else the poll presumably wouldn't have arisen, but... is this really the next trend? Just a glitch? Do people think it's okay?

And I know this is all a bit meta, so I'm pressing Post with due trepidation since I'm not locking this yet, but... I am curious about what people think in general...

Comments

Is it all right if I respond to this?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

As someone who publishes professionally?

I can see the advantage of an ezine in that, as dearly as I love zines, I'm financially strapped and postage on the overseas zines is prohibitive. And I do now commonly read ebooks -- although I prefer print greatly -- and I would be willing to pay for an ezine of something I can't afford in print. Should an ezine cost as much as a print zine? In my opinion, no. For the various reasons you cite.

But I do see the dilemma for a print zine publisher -- how can they make the ezine free but still charge for the print (and I do think they need to charge for print in order to defray all the costs -- which would be considerable in something of the size and quality of Never Far Apart, for example).

Do I think anyone should be making money on fandom? No. But I think no one should be losing money on it either, or it puts fandom participation in peril.

I would say it would make sense to charge something for the ezine simply to protect the viability of doing the print zines -- which I would hate to lose.

**one other thought -- an original, carefully edited full-length novel from a regular ebook publisher only goes for the price of a massmarket paperback, so charging $20. does seem a bit exorbitant. Especially when legit ebook publishers are debating amongst themselves whether $7.99 for a 75K ebook is perhaps highway robbery. Just as a point of interest, standard starter author royalties on ebooks range from 35 - 40%.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Re: Is it all right if I respond to this?
Whyever not? We won't hold your original fic against you..*g* (I was gonna say "professionalism", but I thought it might be a bit much...) *g*

No, it's actually dead interesting to hear from someone who actually makes a living from selling original ebooks - I had noticed that original ebooks (like original paperback books) are priced way below the price of ezines and printed fanzines, and I've wondered about that - and what the authors make cf distributors (which is 35-40% above what fanfic authors make...*g*).

I can see a reason for a huge difference in paper books vs zines - zines aren't mass produced in the same way, so presumably more expensive to produce. But e-books and e-zines? E-zines especially? Where is the overhead that must be paid for in that case?

I would say it would make sense to charge something for the ezine simply to protect the viability of doing the print zines
I dunno, I actually see a massive difference between e-zines and printed-zines, which means that I'll still pay for a printed-zine that I think is worth it, whether it's also available online or not - it's a whole different reading experience. I like curling up in bed with stories printed on paper, and I always will. So I don't care that the Oblique zines are available online, for example, I'll still buy them if I see them come up at reasonable prices. The key, of course, being reasonable prices... And actually it's likely to make the publisher more money if I can see what things are like online first, because I'm more likely to pay a higher price for something when I'm sure of the quality, when I'm sure that it's going to give me alot of pleasure that, for me, defrays the cost.

From conversations I've seen over the years, I think most people who buy paper zines would buy them whether they were online as well or not - you're either a die-hard for paper-reading or you're happy to read online for free, and I'm not sure there's a huge amount of cross-over either way...

Hmmn - no one in fandom should be losing money is a trickier one, for me. There are alot of people who do amazing things for fandom, without expecting for any recompense at all. I've had people send me dvds, give me zines that they'd finished with, copies of fic that they adored and wanted me to read too - all sorts of things. Our archivists (for all they're not currently as active as they have been in the past!) don't charge money for what they do, the comm mods don't expect payment for their time, and all the people who spend hours over fic/art/vids for other people to enjoy freely, don't generally expect to be paid for that time or the resources that they consume. We're all, in effect, losing money on fandom all the time. Except that we do it because we're paying each other back, enjoying each other's work and effort and generousity. So why do a few people seem to think that we owe them cash on top of it all? Maybe because they're not actually interested in our fandom at all, maybe because they don't get anything else out of it. In which case what they do is blantant profiteering, compared to what everyone else does...

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

Hmmn - no one in fandom should be losing money is a trickier one, for me. There are alot of people who do amazing things for fandom, without expecting for any recompense at all. I've had people send me dvds, give me zines that they'd finished with, copies of fic that they adored and wanted me to read too - all sorts of things. Our archivists (for all they're not currently as active as they have been in the past!) don't charge money for what they do, the comm mods don't expect payment for their time, and all the people who spend hours over fic/art/vids for other people to enjoy freely, don't generally expect to be paid for that time or the resources that they consume. We're all, in effect, losing money on fandom all the time. Except that we do it because we're paying each other back, enjoying each other's work and effort and generousity. So why do a few people seem to think that we owe them cash on top of it all? Maybe because they're not actually interested in our fandom at all, maybe because they don't get anything else out of it. In which case what they do is blantant profiteering, compared to what everyone else does...

This is certainly true. I've never met people anywhere more generous than the people in fandom. I'm thinking, I suppose, about the price of publishing some of these gorgeous zines -- the idea that someone might not be able to afford to continue with something like that. Granted, I don't know why some of the old zines went away...it may have nothing at all to do with financial concerns and everything to do with dwindling interest or real life interference.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

it may have nothing at all to do with financial concerns and everything to do with dwindling interest or real life interference.
D'you know I've always assumed the latter rather than the former actually - that people move on from that particular part of their fandom, to do other things. It didn't occur to me that, except for individual reasons, they might just have thought it was too expensive to continue!

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

It didn't occur to me that, except for individual reasons, they might just have thought it was too expensive to continue!

Not for leaving the fandom -- just for discontinuing putting out zines.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry - very delayed action response here, but...

Not for leaving the fandom -- just for discontinuing putting out zines.
Yes, that's what I meant too!