Think-y things about zines and fic and all

[byslantedlight]

Wandering around lj as you do, I came across some interesting discussions/thoughts about zines and fic and different types of access to such things, and I'm all curious now about what Pros-y people think about them, so... I thought I'd post here! Plus, coffee-break! Plus, I'm in a very think-y Pros-y mood this week, what with all the brilliant discussions etc going on at the moment. So here's another one! *g*

There's a poll here, which asks an interesting question: If I was to take all my fanfic off the internet, and offer it in downloadable e-zine form instead, available for $20 (US$ I presume, so about £14 at today's exchange rate) - would you buy it?. It's not specific to the poll-er, it's a hypothetical question - if people did that, would other people spend money on it?

There actually are sites offering downloadable Prosfic zines, which is all fab and good because I love the Oblique zines that are available online to print if I want, and I like having the Dialj Bound zines on my shelves ready to pull off and read while curled up in bed (little bairns that they are... *g*), but other people are charging money for downloadable zines (you have to click on "The Professionals" in the sidebar to see the Pros zines in question - some are downloadable, some aren't), which strikes me as a little different to selling/"distributing" paper zines, because there's presumably no overhead to letting people download a zine - at least no more than anyone else in Pros/fandom pays for their internet connections... *g* So where does that US$8.00 go? What are people actually paying that distributor for doing? Cos isn't the whole point that distributors of fandom don't actually make any profit from it, cos that would be illegal? Do the authors see any of that money? Artists? Wouldn't that be illegal too? Isn't it going against the whole spirit of fandom for distributors/publishers/authors etc to do that?

I can go with the idea that paper zine publishers are paying for printing etc costs (although... well, never mind that now, it's a whole other controversial discussion!) and that it would cost someone to print out a zine, and besides it's fab to have the cover and the art and the binding, and that's what the publisher has done for us - put it all together (presumably they don't get paid for this bit, that's fannish love like the rest of us) and had it printed and bound (the bit that they have to pay a professional printer for and thus are charging us for). But putting a fic/zine up online, which alot of people do for free - why are they charging for that? And in the case that I've linked to above, I don't believe that you can print off the e-zine even if you do pay for it, because they're security protected only to be available on screen. So..?

I dunno - what do other people think of this? Is there a difference between distributing things via paper publication and via e-fic publication? How are the authors affected by this (are any of you reading this? *g*)? I know there's at least one zine being sold at that website that I've hoped might "time out" and come online one day, because I really can't afford full-priced zines very often, but if it's now available for download, then will that ever happen? Did the authors give permission for their zines to be sold as downloads? What's going on..?

Obviously this must be happening in a much broader context in other fandoms, people charging money for downloadable fic, or else the poll presumably wouldn't have arisen, but... is this really the next trend? Just a glitch? Do people think it's okay?

And I know this is all a bit meta, so I'm pressing Post with due trepidation since I'm not locking this yet, but... I am curious about what people think in general...

Comments

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Huh. I hadn't heard about e-zines. I wonder if that will survive? Because, no, I probably wouldn't pay for an e-zine, nor would I want to participate in that as a writer. I do love paper zines, but in that case someone else has gone to the trouble and expense of printing, binding, typesetting, illustrations, etc. Which I love and will pay for--and I am well aware of the huge cost involved in doing a good job there. I have no interest in printing off my own zine--I haven't got a good color printer for illustrations, for instance, and no binding equipment. And, in fact, it would only make me really, really annoyed to have to pay twice (my own expenses for printing/binding). If I were to read online? Well, if the e-zine comes in PDF, that's annoying, as I generally find PDF hard to manipulate and read on my laptop.

As with everything, it would all depend on the actual exaple. *g* But it does seem dodgy to me.

[biani.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that you can print off the e-zine even if you do pay for it, because they're security protected only to be available on screen. So..?

Ahem, you can - it´s all a matter of certain (legal) programmes. Just because Adobe delivers a copy protection for their product doesn´t mean you can´t cancel it.

As to buying zines and coming from a fandom who basically exists without paper zines (the few available are mostly online by now) I swore to myself that I would never buy a zine, ever. Coming to Pros I had to revise that as I got hooked on Kate McLeans stories. I bought and borrowed all zines with her stories, because I HAD to read them (or go insane). She´s the only writer from whom I´d buy a zine at the moment though.

I hope that was on topic ;).

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

I'm still fairly new to this fandom thing *g*, but here's my twopence worth.

First off to your original question - there's the question of where that money goes and the fact that someone is making money off someone else's copyrighted characters. My answer would have to be no, I wouldn't pay for them because A) there's a principle involved and B) the reason I read so much fanfic is because it's free and easily available on the net. I'm not being tight. This is a hobby that I can enjoy without feeling guilty because it's not costing us anything.

Is there a difference between distributing things via paper publication and via e-fic publication?
Yes. The very reason that you've given, imo. Paper publication means that someone has paid out money for printing. An e-fic, well it could be argued that someone has taken the time to put it in a downloadable format, but to my mind that's different as there has been no financial outlay.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Paper zines, yes I'll pay for. Ezines no. We float around in such a grey copyright area anyway in fandom, and I have this amateur-ethic concept stamped in me somewhere, kinda like the Olympics.*g*

Where are the physical overheads in an ezine? How is the amount charged arrived at? You are charging people for the abstract concept of access, rather than of paper and printing costs.

[inamac.livejournal.com]

This question came up a few months ago on Potterfandom - where the copyright issues are even more problematical. The consensus, I think (I can't find the links - possibly from the plagarism comms?) is that it is unacceptabel to make money from fanworks - and this practice (and the worse one of putting paper zines on sale through e-bay) needs to be discouraged.

Having started in 'paper-zine fandom' I still prefer to read print versions - and would be quite happy to sell on my duplicate and unwanted old zines. I'd be more wary of selling on the electronic versions on (3" floppy!) disc - even if they were still readable on modern machines! but for internet copies - well, I'd never even consider archiving without the author's express permision. how are they to get feedback if they donlt know who is reading their story?

[lukadreaming.livejournal.com]

E-zines don't much interest me. I don't like reading on the screen, and I certainly don't want to print out stuff when I don't need to. I believe in conserving paper and ink *g*.

I'd like to see a breakdown to justify the cost of an e-zine. I suppose someone might argue that they've bought software to produce it, but I'm not convinced you claim that back from the buyer!

I like print zines -- the best ones are labours of love with careful typesetting and gorgeous illos. I'll happily pay for those, assuming I think the editor is playing fair with costing.

[erushi.livejournal.com]

I think it really depends. The handy wayback machine thing-y pretty much means that there's little point in taking formerly-online things offline.

I might be willing to pay if I know that the person writes well, and especially if the person's a fandom friend of mine, but not $20. A couple of dollars, maybe, but no more. I've always felt that the point of fanworks was that they're meant to be fun, non-profit things to share. And even if someone counters with the example of fanartists making money off prints and paintings, well, that's the thing. Buying stuff from artists at cons leaves us with something physically tangible. We're not paying for the time, really, or the skill, but the materials which have gone into it. And, well, a token sum of appreciation for the skill and time, but not massive amounts. I'd pay $20 for a hardcopy zine of the fics, maybe, for materials + appreciation of talent, but not for a digital copy which is really just a little bit of reformatting and uploading what you already have. Even original ebook novels usually cost about $5-$7, and these are people making a living. The digital format of something legally non-profitable shouldn't be costing any more.

As for third party agents selling dowloadable zines, well... If the bulk of it was from a very, very old zine currently only available in hardcopy, I might be willing to pay more, as time etc will have had to be put into finding that zine, painstakingly scanning page after page etc. Of course, if there's something in it which I really, really want, I may be persuaded to part with my money too. (You know which fic I'm talking about.) However, I'll always wonder if the fic-writers get any royalties, because I'm not too keen on the notion of people making money of freely-given things...

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

There's a poll here, which asks an interesting question: If I was to take all my fanfic off the internet, and offer it in downloadable e-zine form instead, available for $20 (US$ I presume, so about £14 at today's exchange rate) - would you buy it?. It's not specific to the poll-er, it's a hypothetical question - if people did that, would other people spend money on it?

I wouldn't. Now, if they took their stories down and offered a print zine for $20 I'd probably go for it. Depending on the writer, of course.

... but other people are charging money for downloadable zines (you have to click on "The Professionals" in the sidebar to see the Pros zines in question - some are downloadable, some aren't), which strikes me as a little different to selling/"distributing" paper zines, because there's presumably no overhead to letting people download a zine - at least no more than anyone else in Pros/fandom pays for their internet connections... *g* So where does that US$8.00 go? What are people actually paying that distributor for doing? Cos isn't the whole point that distributors of fandom don't actually make any profit from it, cos that would be illegal? Do the authors see any of that money? Artists? Wouldn't that be illegal too? Isn't it going against the whole spirit of fandom for distributors/publishers/authors etc to do that?

I get the impression the money is supposed to help defray the cost of the print zines (a buyer usually has the choice of print, download or CD,) though considering what she charges ($24 for the last SA zine with only 177 pages and digest size to boot, as opposed to $22 for the last Beyond Dreams-K/S with 198 full-size pages,) I tend to suspect her zines already more than pay for themselves. Hers are the most expensive zines I've run across. And all the writers get is a trib copy.

I dunno - what do other people think of this? Is there a difference between distributing things via paper publication and via e-fic publication? How are the authors affected by this (are any of you reading this? *g*)? I know there's at least one zine being sold at that website that I've hoped might "time out" and come online one day, because I really can't afford full-priced zines very often, but if it's now available for download, then will that ever happen? Did the authors give permission for their zines to be sold as downloads? What's going on..?

The only publisher I've been involved with that went to multiple formatting got all the writers' permission before offering the zine in other than print. I imagine it's the same with this publisher. And at this point writers are probably made aware of the fact that their stories will be offered in more than just print format when they send them in to her.

Is it all right if I respond to this?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

As someone who publishes professionally?

I can see the advantage of an ezine in that, as dearly as I love zines, I'm financially strapped and postage on the overseas zines is prohibitive. And I do now commonly read ebooks -- although I prefer print greatly -- and I would be willing to pay for an ezine of something I can't afford in print. Should an ezine cost as much as a print zine? In my opinion, no. For the various reasons you cite.

But I do see the dilemma for a print zine publisher -- how can they make the ezine free but still charge for the print (and I do think they need to charge for print in order to defray all the costs -- which would be considerable in something of the size and quality of Never Far Apart, for example).

Do I think anyone should be making money on fandom? No. But I think no one should be losing money on it either, or it puts fandom participation in peril.

I would say it would make sense to charge something for the ezine simply to protect the viability of doing the print zines -- which I would hate to lose.

**one other thought -- an original, carefully edited full-length novel from a regular ebook publisher only goes for the price of a massmarket paperback, so charging $20. does seem a bit exorbitant. Especially when legit ebook publishers are debating amongst themselves whether $7.99 for a 75K ebook is perhaps highway robbery. Just as a point of interest, standard starter author royalties on ebooks range from 35 - 40%.

[krisserci5.livejournal.com]

Would I pay for printed zine?. . . . YES

Would I pay for a zine on disk? Just postage, mailer and cost for the disk, anymore than that is profit and not right.

Would I pay for an Ezine? No. All the work is at the author level. The little time to format the ezine should be done with fan love, not profit margins.

We exist in this grey area of legal and making money in our grey area seems wrong . . . like someone is taking advantage of us and our love of that fandom.

[loyseofverlaine.livejournal.com]

In another fandom, I contributed to a zine that was available either as a print zine, as a CD or as an ezine, but the ezine version was much cheaper than the print. (I think $5.) I don't know what the money went for, but I think the publisher had to purchase some kind of security software to ensure that only people with permission got access to the download site.

Personally, I like print zines, and will buy them when I can afford them. There's something about paper that's just more *real* to me (yes, I was around when dinosaurs roamed the earth). I've bought a couple of zines that are already available on the net just because I like them so much I want to have them actually in my hands. On the other hand, I seem to be the rare person who has no problem with reading off a screen, and I'll happily read free on-line archives. But an ezine? It's sort of the worst of both worlds: I have to pay for it, *and* it's still on the computer, which means I get to pay for printing it too.

On top of all that, there's the time factor: there's so much available on the net I couldn't possibly run out of stuff to read.

[sineala.livejournal.com]

FYI, I am planning on (but have not yet) publishing with Requiem. (Because, well, yay, I get to have my story in a nicely-formatted zine with art and everything.) As far as I am aware, her ebook downloads do not affect the timeout; I was told that I am free to put the story up elsewhere after a year. I have not specifically asked about ebooks.

maubast is probably one of the nicest people I've met in fandom, and I'm really pretty sure she's not using the profits from ebook downloads to buy herself a new house or whatever, as has been rumored about other publishers. And I don't claim to speak for her, but I know she likes ebooks as a format in general herself, as a reader, and it is certainly a convenient way to get the fanfiction to people who can't/won't pay for the increased cost of a paper zine. But if she makes the ebook free, then who buys the paper zine?

I know we're not supposed to make money off of fandom and there is a kneejerk reaction whenever anyone does, or seems like they're going to. But, then again, there's things in fandom people do make money off -- like art. No one complains about paying for original art, as far as I can tell, or even for reproductions of it, and in a lot of cases people don't just seem to be paying for the cost of the paper, and that seems to be okay in fandom. And so people do make money off of that, right?

Right, so, I write the story for free. Because it's fun. I am not good at layout. I am not good at illustrations. I do not even know people who do illustrations. If I had to make a zine myself it would probably be copied and pasted non-justified text with stick figures drawn in the margins. It takes skill to do good layout and typesetting, really. And since those skills are reflected in the ebook version of the zine as well as the dead-tree version, I have no problem with the idea of paying for downloadable zines, and the prices there seem comparable to original fiction ebooks I have purchased, actually.

I know it's a radical view, but if fandom artists charge for art, I don't see why editors shouldn't incorporate some small fee for editing/layout, anyway, as an artistic skill. Plus, as I said, if the ebook's free, then no one buys the paper zine, and I think it's perfectly reasonable as well for the ebook to defray some of the costs of the paper zines.

(On the other hand, if the zine's timed out and is available on the web, the ebook option seems weird. But, on the other hand, presumably authors aren't offering a nicely formatted PDF with illos for free when it times out, either, so, hey, maybe someone will still want that.)

I wouldn't buy them as a reader, because I have a hell of a time reading PDFs of zines on my computer, at least the ones I have tried. My screen just isn't big enough for two-column formatting, for example. And I do think pulling previously-free fic off the web and selling it for $20 would be kind of a sleazy money-grab, but I think it's different than what Bast is doing, which is making new fic available, and at a different price, which does make a difference.

So there's my weird dissenting opinion.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

As biani says, there are ways to break the "no print" coding. Not that I've used 'em myself.

Cost of producing e-zines? Amortising the cost of your pdf program, especially if you're using Adobe. Website maintenance. A more expensive Internet package than you might require for private use. A business-type account with a file-sharing site. Cost of cover art (that being a whole other can of worms that I don't want to get into here). That's about all I can think of.

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

My comment will default on the side of free choice, so I suppose I'll be the rebel here!

I feel that people have the right to chose to do ezines, or print zines or publish to the net or even to sell on Ebay. They have the right to put whatever value on the item they desire. The buyers have the right to vote on that item with their dollars (or pounds). If nobody buys, that will tell the seller that their item is not needed or wanted. I feel that fan artists have the right to sell their art for whatever another individual is willing to pay. No one is being forced to buy any of these items. Voting with your money works. It makes a statement. It's powerful in our world today.

I understand that people feel like they're not infringing if they don't make money. Or it gives them an excuse to use those characters. I suppose it makes them feel better than the "other side" and even a bit more superior that they can say, I'm using so and so's characters but I do it for free. *shrug* That doesn't bother me either because I only worry about me and my actions. I don't feel an iota of jealousy or outrage when I see fanart selling for a thousand dollars at an auction. I can't afford it, but I'm happy somebody else can.

Zines are in a huge decline. There used to be hundreds published each year, but now I don't think the entire fandom world publishes more than a few dozen. They'll be gone soon enough, as will the CDs and downloads from the looks of things. So in the end, it will work out one way or the other by people using their buying power.

[diegina.livejournal.com]

First of all, I haven't read all the previous 33 replies for this post of yours, so I'm sorry if I start some argue anew, repeat facts or something.

First of all, I've bought several of these downloadable zines from Requiem. Why?

It's damn FAST!
From the minute I've ordered them to the moment I could read them it all took only a few hours. If I remember correctly, it took only one hour in one case. Compared to waiting weeks for a hard copy, it's magic.

It's cheap way how to get the content of the zine! And this is the most important thing for me.
I've bought several printed zines, but... well, to pay $32 per zine (sometimes a bit less when the issue is slimmer) is simply too much for me, especially when almost half of the cost is postage to Europe. And when I see that zine in the end, that little something in plastic binding, I always wonder if the price is really worth it. When I saw Requiem offers some of its zines also in this downloadable version - next to the usual printed version - I didn't hesitate. For me, this is the only affordable way how to get a zine - next to writing for it and get a free trib copy. But I'm still afraid of writing a Pros story in English, not mentioning a story good enough to be published in a printed zine.

Yes, I can't print it. (Well, not officially, but it's nothing even a below-average IT student wouldn't cope with;-P). But I don't mind, all zines I've seen so far are written in too large font anyway, and have too much empty space on all sides. Waste of paper I call it. All of them could be half the size just by half-sizing the used font.
So I don't mind the fact I pay for data and not for paper, I just read the stories from the screen of my laptop, and one day, when I will feel up to it I will print in my own format, the way I like it.

And now to the question "What am I actually paying for?" It seems I pay just for an unprintable file. But there is still that usual printed version of the zine, the one that usually costs the editor much more money then he/she will ever get back from the actual sale. I see it as a way to help to reduce the loss. Also, this form of fanzine is not much popular, so I'm not worried about actual profit. I wouldn't pay for a pure e-zine, but I don't mind paying for this. Because unlike most of you, I have only this choice: either this cheap version of the zine in the form "e-zine" or no zine at all. So am I really that bad guy when I choose to pay?

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I am involved in 'original' zines. One of them is moving towards charging. I have paid for 'original' zines. The charges go towards the purchase and maintenance of the website and domain name - and possibly towards paying the authros a nominal amount for their fic. There are two ways of putting e-fic out there - you can't usually access the fic till you've paid though there might be samples, but only some sites do a 'read only' version and block printing. If you did have one you could print you'd have the worry that other people might print and resell - there'd be absolutely no control. We've had pirated stuff appearing elsewhere from our little zine and it's hard (and time consuming) to deal with.

Having said all that... I would assume, if I accessed an e-site, that the site owners had already sorted all the legal issues and that worries with the web hosts not liking e.g. fanfic were their problem and not mine!

I personally prefer e-fic for all fanfic and a lot of lighter original fic reading - easier to cart about and store! I'd definitely pay for yours, but I'd need to know something about the authros if it was a mixed zine!!

Hope this all adds to the discussion!

[fluterbev.livejournal.com]

I just wanted you to know that just about everything you have said throughout this whole debate has resonated with me in a big way. I like the cut of your jib :-).

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I just read all the comments (I always do thing backwards) and have realised that people do criticise the cost of paper zines and that the cost of the e-zines appears to be outrageous! I certainly wouldn't pay more (or even as much) for a fanfic zine than I would for e.g. one of Josh's e-books!! Just as, given the amount of fic online, I wouldn't pay more for a printed zine than I would for a printed book. But as somebody else said, readers will vote with their pounds/dollars.

So that rather alters my attitude towards the e-zines!

[birggitt.livejournal.com]

To me, all this discussion is hypothetical. Because, if you put all your fics in a downloaded e-zine and charge $20 for them, I would never, ever read them.
For those who are living in countries as mine $20 is a big bunch of money (more than you have to pay for a good hard-cover book). An, at that cost? No way.
People who can't go to Conventions, go live, like me, on South America, are fanzine deprived, too.
Cost make them unfordable, and that's a real shame, but is something we learn to live with.
I print my fics, and bind them , but is not the same. So, if I could, I'd buy every single zine that's around. I believe is just fair to pay for them, as they cost money to the person who actually put them together. Let's not talk about work, and stress, and hours of their time.
E-zines, OTOH, should be for free. There's not cost involved, only fannish work. And, if we are gonna pay for fannish work, I'd prefer to give my money to authors *shrugs* Just my two cents :)