Think-y things about zines and fic and all

[byslantedlight]

Wandering around lj as you do, I came across some interesting discussions/thoughts about zines and fic and different types of access to such things, and I'm all curious now about what Pros-y people think about them, so... I thought I'd post here! Plus, coffee-break! Plus, I'm in a very think-y Pros-y mood this week, what with all the brilliant discussions etc going on at the moment. So here's another one! *g*

There's a poll here, which asks an interesting question: If I was to take all my fanfic off the internet, and offer it in downloadable e-zine form instead, available for $20 (US$ I presume, so about £14 at today's exchange rate) - would you buy it?. It's not specific to the poll-er, it's a hypothetical question - if people did that, would other people spend money on it?

There actually are sites offering downloadable Prosfic zines, which is all fab and good because I love the Oblique zines that are available online to print if I want, and I like having the Dialj Bound zines on my shelves ready to pull off and read while curled up in bed (little bairns that they are... *g*), but other people are charging money for downloadable zines (you have to click on "The Professionals" in the sidebar to see the Pros zines in question - some are downloadable, some aren't), which strikes me as a little different to selling/"distributing" paper zines, because there's presumably no overhead to letting people download a zine - at least no more than anyone else in Pros/fandom pays for their internet connections... *g* So where does that US$8.00 go? What are people actually paying that distributor for doing? Cos isn't the whole point that distributors of fandom don't actually make any profit from it, cos that would be illegal? Do the authors see any of that money? Artists? Wouldn't that be illegal too? Isn't it going against the whole spirit of fandom for distributors/publishers/authors etc to do that?

I can go with the idea that paper zine publishers are paying for printing etc costs (although... well, never mind that now, it's a whole other controversial discussion!) and that it would cost someone to print out a zine, and besides it's fab to have the cover and the art and the binding, and that's what the publisher has done for us - put it all together (presumably they don't get paid for this bit, that's fannish love like the rest of us) and had it printed and bound (the bit that they have to pay a professional printer for and thus are charging us for). But putting a fic/zine up online, which alot of people do for free - why are they charging for that? And in the case that I've linked to above, I don't believe that you can print off the e-zine even if you do pay for it, because they're security protected only to be available on screen. So..?

I dunno - what do other people think of this? Is there a difference between distributing things via paper publication and via e-fic publication? How are the authors affected by this (are any of you reading this? *g*)? I know there's at least one zine being sold at that website that I've hoped might "time out" and come online one day, because I really can't afford full-priced zines very often, but if it's now available for download, then will that ever happen? Did the authors give permission for their zines to be sold as downloads? What's going on..?

Obviously this must be happening in a much broader context in other fandoms, people charging money for downloadable fic, or else the poll presumably wouldn't have arisen, but... is this really the next trend? Just a glitch? Do people think it's okay?

And I know this is all a bit meta, so I'm pressing Post with due trepidation since I'm not locking this yet, but... I am curious about what people think in general...

Comments

[msmoat.livejournal.com]

Huh. I hadn't heard about e-zines. I wonder if that will survive? Because, no, I probably wouldn't pay for an e-zine, nor would I want to participate in that as a writer. I do love paper zines, but in that case someone else has gone to the trouble and expense of printing, binding, typesetting, illustrations, etc. Which I love and will pay for--and I am well aware of the huge cost involved in doing a good job there. I have no interest in printing off my own zine--I haven't got a good color printer for illustrations, for instance, and no binding equipment. And, in fact, it would only make me really, really annoyed to have to pay twice (my own expenses for printing/binding). If I were to read online? Well, if the e-zine comes in PDF, that's annoying, as I generally find PDF hard to manipulate and read on my laptop.

As with everything, it would all depend on the actual exaple. *g* But it does seem dodgy to me.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Dratted work... and other interesting Pros-y discussions all on the same day! *g*

I love paper zines too, as you know, although I'd also like to see more new ones available for free download/printing online, a la Oblique. I know this is precluded for some of the existing zines because there are authors who will only publish on paper and not at all online, which is a whole other thing, and I have no problem with paying for someone else to do the awkward business of printing and binding for me on occasion, but I also don't see why we can't just print zines ourselves if we're so inclined. If the idea is to share fic, in ways that let us be most comfortable, then I bet there could be a happy compromise there.

But it's the question of payment for these e-zines that throws me, and the fact that printing is actually disabled for them - so actually you're not paying twice, you're actually paying for a less versatile product which you can't print out anyway... So what is it that the distributor is making money for doing? And what is that they're doing above and beyond what the writer is doing?

[biani.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that you can print off the e-zine even if you do pay for it, because they're security protected only to be available on screen. So..?

Ahem, you can - it´s all a matter of certain (legal) programmes. Just because Adobe delivers a copy protection for their product doesn´t mean you can´t cancel it.

As to buying zines and coming from a fandom who basically exists without paper zines (the few available are mostly online by now) I swore to myself that I would never buy a zine, ever. Coming to Pros I had to revise that as I got hooked on Kate McLeans stories. I bought and borrowed all zines with her stories, because I HAD to read them (or go insane). She´s the only writer from whom I´d buy a zine at the moment though.

I hope that was on topic ;).

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Heee - feel free to email me any time... *g* Please! I'd love to know the workaround, cos there's one particular story... *g*

See, Kate MacLean isn't an author who's online though - I think she's got one story online, and she's chosen not to go in that direction, and I don't have a problem with that.

I adore paper zines, and although I frown at what's charged for some of them, I do and have and will buy them - because I much prefer to read from paper. I won't buy from zine sellers who seem to be charging very high prices though...

So... what about paying approx £15.00 (based on the price of another novel-length e-zine being sold) for a novel-length fanfic that isn't available any other way? Would it depend on who it was by? What about the whole copyright issue, and the idea that fanfic is morally supposed to be available for free/without profit (because otherwise royalties should be due to the original creator of the character/series)?

[hambelandjemima.livejournal.com]

I'm still fairly new to this fandom thing *g*, but here's my twopence worth.

First off to your original question - there's the question of where that money goes and the fact that someone is making money off someone else's copyrighted characters. My answer would have to be no, I wouldn't pay for them because A) there's a principle involved and B) the reason I read so much fanfic is because it's free and easily available on the net. I'm not being tight. This is a hobby that I can enjoy without feeling guilty because it's not costing us anything.

Is there a difference between distributing things via paper publication and via e-fic publication?
Yes. The very reason that you've given, imo. Paper publication means that someone has paid out money for printing. An e-fic, well it could be argued that someone has taken the time to put it in a downloadable format, but to my mind that's different as there has been no financial outlay.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm pretty new to this fandom thing too, at least by Pros standards! *g* Fun though, innit?

I'm totally with you about the principle, and although I sometimes spend money on zines, I do it when I can splash out on my hobby, and I've done the same with a million other hobbies in the past...

Yeah, with you about the idea of compensating someone for their financial outlay - so that when you pay them it becomes your financial outlay, as if you'd printed and bound it yourself, effectively. The problem I have is when publishers and especially distributors seem to charge so much more than what their financial outlay is - or when they start including things like compensation for their time and effort and attendance at cons in order to sell their zines, etc etc... I love the gift economy of fandom, and I hate the idea that it might be commercialised like everything else in the world...

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

Paper zines, yes I'll pay for. Ezines no. We float around in such a grey copyright area anyway in fandom, and I have this amateur-ethic concept stamped in me somewhere, kinda like the Olympics.*g*

Where are the physical overheads in an ezine? How is the amount charged arrived at? You are charging people for the abstract concept of access, rather than of paper and printing costs.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

You are charging people for the abstract concept of access, rather than of paper and printing costs.
Yes! Yes, yes, yes! Very nicely worded, and just what I have a problem with! That fandom is about sharing the love, and if you start charging to make a profit for sharing that love, then... well, is it really love? *g*

[inamac.livejournal.com]

This question came up a few months ago on Potterfandom - where the copyright issues are even more problematical. The consensus, I think (I can't find the links - possibly from the plagarism comms?) is that it is unacceptabel to make money from fanworks - and this practice (and the worse one of putting paper zines on sale through e-bay) needs to be discouraged.

Having started in 'paper-zine fandom' I still prefer to read print versions - and would be quite happy to sell on my duplicate and unwanted old zines. I'd be more wary of selling on the electronic versions on (3" floppy!) disc - even if they were still readable on modern machines! but for internet copies - well, I'd never even consider archiving without the author's express permision. how are they to get feedback if they donlt know who is reading their story?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Ah, interesting - I could totally go with the HP consensus then!

Bu-ut I love reading paper zines too! And I think I read differently when I'm reading online to the way I do when I'm curled up in bed with a printout or a zine as well...

I'm assuming that the distributor did have permission from the authors to put the zines up as e-zines for download, but - it surprises me that they don't mind her seemingly making a profit from their hard work, because she must be, surely...

[lukadreaming.livejournal.com]

E-zines don't much interest me. I don't like reading on the screen, and I certainly don't want to print out stuff when I don't need to. I believe in conserving paper and ink *g*.

I'd like to see a breakdown to justify the cost of an e-zine. I suppose someone might argue that they've bought software to produce it, but I'm not convinced you claim that back from the buyer!

I like print zines -- the best ones are labours of love with careful typesetting and gorgeous illos. I'll happily pay for those, assuming I think the editor is playing fair with costing.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see a breakdown to justify the cost of an e-zine. I suppose someone might argue that they've bought software to produce it, but I'm not convinced you claim that back from the buyer!
That's exactly what I'd like to see, actually (and from print-zine publishers as well, mind you). I've seen people say it's for software to secure the site, but... I mean, we all pay for things like that, just as a part of being in fandom, and giving back to all the other people who are in fandom, whose work we've enjoyed, so it seems odd that some people should charge money for that...

And you know that I adore printed zines - but as you say, the catch is that it assumes the editor is playing fair with the prices...

[erushi.livejournal.com]

I think it really depends. The handy wayback machine thing-y pretty much means that there's little point in taking formerly-online things offline.

I might be willing to pay if I know that the person writes well, and especially if the person's a fandom friend of mine, but not $20. A couple of dollars, maybe, but no more. I've always felt that the point of fanworks was that they're meant to be fun, non-profit things to share. And even if someone counters with the example of fanartists making money off prints and paintings, well, that's the thing. Buying stuff from artists at cons leaves us with something physically tangible. We're not paying for the time, really, or the skill, but the materials which have gone into it. And, well, a token sum of appreciation for the skill and time, but not massive amounts. I'd pay $20 for a hardcopy zine of the fics, maybe, for materials + appreciation of talent, but not for a digital copy which is really just a little bit of reformatting and uploading what you already have. Even original ebook novels usually cost about $5-$7, and these are people making a living. The digital format of something legally non-profitable shouldn't be costing any more.

As for third party agents selling dowloadable zines, well... If the bulk of it was from a very, very old zine currently only available in hardcopy, I might be willing to pay more, as time etc will have had to be put into finding that zine, painstakingly scanning page after page etc. Of course, if there's something in it which I really, really want, I may be persuaded to part with my money too. (You know which fic I'm talking about.) However, I'll always wonder if the fic-writers get any royalties, because I'm not too keen on the notion of people making money of freely-given things...

[mab-browne.livejournal.com]

The Wayback Machine is useful but I understand that web page owners can approach the site and request that they not be filed, so it's not a foolproof method of access.

[gilda-elise.livejournal.com]

There's a poll here, which asks an interesting question: If I was to take all my fanfic off the internet, and offer it in downloadable e-zine form instead, available for $20 (US$ I presume, so about £14 at today's exchange rate) - would you buy it?. It's not specific to the poll-er, it's a hypothetical question - if people did that, would other people spend money on it?

I wouldn't. Now, if they took their stories down and offered a print zine for $20 I'd probably go for it. Depending on the writer, of course.

... but other people are charging money for downloadable zines (you have to click on "The Professionals" in the sidebar to see the Pros zines in question - some are downloadable, some aren't), which strikes me as a little different to selling/"distributing" paper zines, because there's presumably no overhead to letting people download a zine - at least no more than anyone else in Pros/fandom pays for their internet connections... *g* So where does that US$8.00 go? What are people actually paying that distributor for doing? Cos isn't the whole point that distributors of fandom don't actually make any profit from it, cos that would be illegal? Do the authors see any of that money? Artists? Wouldn't that be illegal too? Isn't it going against the whole spirit of fandom for distributors/publishers/authors etc to do that?

I get the impression the money is supposed to help defray the cost of the print zines (a buyer usually has the choice of print, download or CD,) though considering what she charges ($24 for the last SA zine with only 177 pages and digest size to boot, as opposed to $22 for the last Beyond Dreams-K/S with 198 full-size pages,) I tend to suspect her zines already more than pay for themselves. Hers are the most expensive zines I've run across. And all the writers get is a trib copy.

I dunno - what do other people think of this? Is there a difference between distributing things via paper publication and via e-fic publication? How are the authors affected by this (are any of you reading this? *g*)? I know there's at least one zine being sold at that website that I've hoped might "time out" and come online one day, because I really can't afford full-priced zines very often, but if it's now available for download, then will that ever happen? Did the authors give permission for their zines to be sold as downloads? What's going on..?

The only publisher I've been involved with that went to multiple formatting got all the writers' permission before offering the zine in other than print. I imagine it's the same with this publisher. And at this point writers are probably made aware of the fact that their stories will be offered in more than just print format when they send them in to her.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Now, if they took their stories down and offered a print zine for $20 I'd probably go for it.
Ha - according to most print zine publishers, that'd be a real bargain in the first place! *g*

I get the impression the money is supposed to help defray the cost of the print zines
Ahhh - okay. I don't think I agree with that either (why should someone who doesn't reap the benefits of the print zine, or chooses an ezine because it's cheaper and that's what they can afford, subsidise people who do want print zines? Doesn't seem fair somehow...

multiple formatting got all the writers' permission before offering the zine in other than print.
Oh, I'm assuming she has permission actually. And to be fair, the link I included was an example of this already happening in Pros, and wasn't meant to be pointedly questioning that publisher! It does strike me as bizarre though that authors would give permission for someone to profit from their non-profit-allowed work, so I'd really like to see some sort of breakdown of why it's not a profit...

Is it all right if I respond to this?

[jgraeme2007.livejournal.com]

As someone who publishes professionally?

I can see the advantage of an ezine in that, as dearly as I love zines, I'm financially strapped and postage on the overseas zines is prohibitive. And I do now commonly read ebooks -- although I prefer print greatly -- and I would be willing to pay for an ezine of something I can't afford in print. Should an ezine cost as much as a print zine? In my opinion, no. For the various reasons you cite.

But I do see the dilemma for a print zine publisher -- how can they make the ezine free but still charge for the print (and I do think they need to charge for print in order to defray all the costs -- which would be considerable in something of the size and quality of Never Far Apart, for example).

Do I think anyone should be making money on fandom? No. But I think no one should be losing money on it either, or it puts fandom participation in peril.

I would say it would make sense to charge something for the ezine simply to protect the viability of doing the print zines -- which I would hate to lose.

**one other thought -- an original, carefully edited full-length novel from a regular ebook publisher only goes for the price of a massmarket paperback, so charging $20. does seem a bit exorbitant. Especially when legit ebook publishers are debating amongst themselves whether $7.99 for a 75K ebook is perhaps highway robbery. Just as a point of interest, standard starter author royalties on ebooks range from 35 - 40%.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Re: Is it all right if I respond to this?
Whyever not? We won't hold your original fic against you..*g* (I was gonna say "professionalism", but I thought it might be a bit much...) *g*

No, it's actually dead interesting to hear from someone who actually makes a living from selling original ebooks - I had noticed that original ebooks (like original paperback books) are priced way below the price of ezines and printed fanzines, and I've wondered about that - and what the authors make cf distributors (which is 35-40% above what fanfic authors make...*g*).

I can see a reason for a huge difference in paper books vs zines - zines aren't mass produced in the same way, so presumably more expensive to produce. But e-books and e-zines? E-zines especially? Where is the overhead that must be paid for in that case?

I would say it would make sense to charge something for the ezine simply to protect the viability of doing the print zines
I dunno, I actually see a massive difference between e-zines and printed-zines, which means that I'll still pay for a printed-zine that I think is worth it, whether it's also available online or not - it's a whole different reading experience. I like curling up in bed with stories printed on paper, and I always will. So I don't care that the Oblique zines are available online, for example, I'll still buy them if I see them come up at reasonable prices. The key, of course, being reasonable prices... And actually it's likely to make the publisher more money if I can see what things are like online first, because I'm more likely to pay a higher price for something when I'm sure of the quality, when I'm sure that it's going to give me alot of pleasure that, for me, defrays the cost.

From conversations I've seen over the years, I think most people who buy paper zines would buy them whether they were online as well or not - you're either a die-hard for paper-reading or you're happy to read online for free, and I'm not sure there's a huge amount of cross-over either way...

Hmmn - no one in fandom should be losing money is a trickier one, for me. There are alot of people who do amazing things for fandom, without expecting for any recompense at all. I've had people send me dvds, give me zines that they'd finished with, copies of fic that they adored and wanted me to read too - all sorts of things. Our archivists (for all they're not currently as active as they have been in the past!) don't charge money for what they do, the comm mods don't expect payment for their time, and all the people who spend hours over fic/art/vids for other people to enjoy freely, don't generally expect to be paid for that time or the resources that they consume. We're all, in effect, losing money on fandom all the time. Except that we do it because we're paying each other back, enjoying each other's work and effort and generousity. So why do a few people seem to think that we owe them cash on top of it all? Maybe because they're not actually interested in our fandom at all, maybe because they don't get anything else out of it. In which case what they do is blantant profiteering, compared to what everyone else does...

[krisserci5.livejournal.com]

Would I pay for printed zine?. . . . YES

Would I pay for a zine on disk? Just postage, mailer and cost for the disk, anymore than that is profit and not right.

Would I pay for an Ezine? No. All the work is at the author level. The little time to format the ezine should be done with fan love, not profit margins.

We exist in this grey area of legal and making money in our grey area seems wrong . . . like someone is taking advantage of us and our love of that fandom.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'll pay for a printed zine too - as long as I'm fairly confident that the publisher is charging a reasonable sum, rather than shoring up profit against their next con, or a new printer, or any of the other things that we'd all really appreciate in return for time and effort in fandom!

like someone is taking advantage of us and our love of that fandom.
Yes! Yes, simply and perfectly worded, that's just how I feel about it...

[loyseofverlaine.livejournal.com]

In another fandom, I contributed to a zine that was available either as a print zine, as a CD or as an ezine, but the ezine version was much cheaper than the print. (I think $5.) I don't know what the money went for, but I think the publisher had to purchase some kind of security software to ensure that only people with permission got access to the download site.

Personally, I like print zines, and will buy them when I can afford them. There's something about paper that's just more *real* to me (yes, I was around when dinosaurs roamed the earth). I've bought a couple of zines that are already available on the net just because I like them so much I want to have them actually in my hands. On the other hand, I seem to be the rare person who has no problem with reading off a screen, and I'll happily read free on-line archives. But an ezine? It's sort of the worst of both worlds: I have to pay for it, *and* it's still on the computer, which means I get to pay for printing it too.

On top of all that, there's the time factor: there's so much available on the net I couldn't possibly run out of stuff to read.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

I think the publisher had to purchase some kind of security software to ensure that only people with permission got access to the download site
Hmmn - but isn't that just the same as me having to purchase Word for Windows in order to write fic (which actually I can't afford to do, so I'm struggling along on Open Office, which is free and commendable, but a bloody bugger in many important ways), or Dreamweaver in order to run my fannish website, or a vidder to buy decent vidding software... Why does the publisher feel that she should be compensated for her outlay, when other fans spend their own money because it enables them to take part in fandom in the way that they want to? And if she didn't lock that fic up, then she wouldn't need the expensive software in the first place! Open it up to everyone, for free - then she wouldn't need to recoup what she's spent on security software!

I like print zines, and will buy them when I can afford them
Me too - I run a zine website, I'm quite fond of them! *vbg* And I can just about go with the huge prices that publishers ask for printed zines, on the basis that it does cost money to print and bind them. But as you say, an e-zine is the worst of all worlds - worse than you think even, because you can't actually print out the examples I linked to above - that's presumably where some of that money spent on security software goes, on locking them up so that they can't be printed out... waah!

[sineala.livejournal.com]

FYI, I am planning on (but have not yet) publishing with Requiem. (Because, well, yay, I get to have my story in a nicely-formatted zine with art and everything.) As far as I am aware, her ebook downloads do not affect the timeout; I was told that I am free to put the story up elsewhere after a year. I have not specifically asked about ebooks.

maubast is probably one of the nicest people I've met in fandom, and I'm really pretty sure she's not using the profits from ebook downloads to buy herself a new house or whatever, as has been rumored about other publishers. And I don't claim to speak for her, but I know she likes ebooks as a format in general herself, as a reader, and it is certainly a convenient way to get the fanfiction to people who can't/won't pay for the increased cost of a paper zine. But if she makes the ebook free, then who buys the paper zine?

I know we're not supposed to make money off of fandom and there is a kneejerk reaction whenever anyone does, or seems like they're going to. But, then again, there's things in fandom people do make money off -- like art. No one complains about paying for original art, as far as I can tell, or even for reproductions of it, and in a lot of cases people don't just seem to be paying for the cost of the paper, and that seems to be okay in fandom. And so people do make money off of that, right?

Right, so, I write the story for free. Because it's fun. I am not good at layout. I am not good at illustrations. I do not even know people who do illustrations. If I had to make a zine myself it would probably be copied and pasted non-justified text with stick figures drawn in the margins. It takes skill to do good layout and typesetting, really. And since those skills are reflected in the ebook version of the zine as well as the dead-tree version, I have no problem with the idea of paying for downloadable zines, and the prices there seem comparable to original fiction ebooks I have purchased, actually.

I know it's a radical view, but if fandom artists charge for art, I don't see why editors shouldn't incorporate some small fee for editing/layout, anyway, as an artistic skill. Plus, as I said, if the ebook's free, then no one buys the paper zine, and I think it's perfectly reasonable as well for the ebook to defray some of the costs of the paper zines.

(On the other hand, if the zine's timed out and is available on the web, the ebook option seems weird. But, on the other hand, presumably authors aren't offering a nicely formatted PDF with illos for free when it times out, either, so, hey, maybe someone will still want that.)

I wouldn't buy them as a reader, because I have a hell of a time reading PDFs of zines on my computer, at least the ones I have tried. My screen just isn't big enough for two-column formatting, for example. And I do think pulling previously-free fic off the web and selling it for $20 would be kind of a sleazy money-grab, but I think it's different than what Bast is doing, which is making new fic available, and at a different price, which does make a difference.

So there's my weird dissenting opinion.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Plus, as I said, if the ebook's free, then no one buys the paper zine, and I think it's perfectly reasonable as well for the ebook to defray some of the costs of the paper zines.

I think people who prefer print would buy the printed version even if the online one was available for free. People buy zines with fic in it that is still available online after all. And I know that people do take down fic from the net when it goes into a zine because it happened quite recently with one series.

I can appreciate that with print runs, more copies printed lowers the costs, but other than that -- if less people buy the printed zine what difference would it make if there was no profit involved?

The Jean Kluge fic 'Changes' that Bast is currently offering as a download for $20 is at least 7 years old. It was originally in a zine; I don't know if it's ever been available for free.

I've never bought a zine and I'll admit I'm ignorant of the costs involved but now that they're no longer the only way of sharing fic, as they were originally, which bought them immunity in a way, I don't find it too surprising that people are asking questions about profits.

People online are used to reading fic for free and people sharing generously when it comes to time and effort. Providing a printed option for those who want it at a price that covers the cost and not a penny more is fan service and laudable. Providing fic only to those willing to pay for it and building in an (undisclosed) profit seems to me to transgress a cardinal rule; you don't make money off fans and fandom.

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

As biani says, there are ways to break the "no print" coding. Not that I've used 'em myself.

Cost of producing e-zines? Amortising the cost of your pdf program, especially if you're using Adobe. Website maintenance. A more expensive Internet package than you might require for private use. A business-type account with a file-sharing site. Cost of cover art (that being a whole other can of worms that I don't want to get into here). That's about all I can think of.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Amortising the cost of your pdf program, especially if you're using Adobe.
Oh good, so I could be charging people for the word processing package I use to write fic (well, that I would choose to write fic if I could afford it, rather than the clumsy free one which is what I have to use now)? For the programme I use to make the Dialj Bound zines? Vidders should be charging us for their vidding software?

A more expensive Internet package than you might require for private use.
But what makes them more expensive? The add-ons that are required to create shopping baskets etc - the add ons that allow the publishers to charge money in the first place. Get rid of them, in the spirit of fandom's gift economy, and you've got rid of the need for that fancy "business account".

Cost of cover art (that being a whole other can of worms that I don't want to get into here).
Oh, I'll go into it - why should fan artists be paid for something that fan writers aren't paid for? Are they using someone else's creations to prompt their own artistry, just the same as fan writers do? Yes. Is their talent any greater/better than a fan writer's talent? No. So why should they be paid when other fannish contributors aren't?

Either fandom publishers are part of the fannish gift economy - perhaps defraying specific costs from print zines, which are excessive - in which case they're enjoying fandom and their own role is repaying that fandom with their own efforts - or they're not. And if they're not, but they're charging us for other things - making a profit, or providing them with snazzier equipment, or paying for travel and attendance to cons that we'd all like to go to - then they're simply profiteering, surely? So if that US$8.00 can't be justified by specific costs involved in uploading fic (bearing in mind that we all do it), then...?

[sc-fossil.livejournal.com]

My comment will default on the side of free choice, so I suppose I'll be the rebel here!

I feel that people have the right to chose to do ezines, or print zines or publish to the net or even to sell on Ebay. They have the right to put whatever value on the item they desire. The buyers have the right to vote on that item with their dollars (or pounds). If nobody buys, that will tell the seller that their item is not needed or wanted. I feel that fan artists have the right to sell their art for whatever another individual is willing to pay. No one is being forced to buy any of these items. Voting with your money works. It makes a statement. It's powerful in our world today.

I understand that people feel like they're not infringing if they don't make money. Or it gives them an excuse to use those characters. I suppose it makes them feel better than the "other side" and even a bit more superior that they can say, I'm using so and so's characters but I do it for free. *shrug* That doesn't bother me either because I only worry about me and my actions. I don't feel an iota of jealousy or outrage when I see fanart selling for a thousand dollars at an auction. I can't afford it, but I'm happy somebody else can.

Zines are in a huge decline. There used to be hundreds published each year, but now I don't think the entire fandom world publishes more than a few dozen. They'll be gone soon enough, as will the CDs and downloads from the looks of things. So in the end, it will work out one way or the other by people using their buying power.

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

My comment will default on the side of free choice, so I suppose I'll be the rebel here!
Lol - not at all! I tend to assume that everything defaults to free choice, what I'm interested in is why people make those choices, whether they'll work considering their environment and context, and so on. There's always free choice as far as I'm concerned - do people make the best free choices, though? We make choices all the time, and luckily most of the people in Pros fandom are free to make whichever ones they want - but whether they're good choices for other people is another question...

I understand that people feel like they're not infringing if they don't make money.
Hmmn - I've never really thought that this was the case, to be honest - I thought it was more of a legal infringement that revolves around payment for something that's been copyrighted/trademarked, and any moral infringement is a completely different argument that generally ends up with someone saying "but there are only so-many stories in the world, so at some point we're all infringing on someone else's ideas...".

That doesn't bother me either because I only worry about me and my actions.
Well, I could quote Martin Niemöller here, but I won't... I think there is a point at which we need to worry about what's going on in the wider world, where ever that might be...

I don't feel an iota of jealousy or outrage when I see fanart selling for a thousand dollars at an auction
No, I don't feel jealous either, but I will admit to feeling somewhat upset that there are parts of fandom where commercialism has intruded over the fannish gift-economy, which is one of the things I prize most about the fannish world. In a place where the vast majority of people create and share and give purely because it makes people happy, I think it's a shame that other people want to take advantage of the love we have for our characters, and make money from it. It's bringing what I think are the worst parts of the "real world" to somewhere I felt was above that.

Zines are in a huge decline... They'll be gone soon enough, as will the CDs and downloads from the looks of things. So in the end, it will work out one way or the other by people using their buying power.
Well, I'm not sure that it has to come down to "buying power" you see - I like the idea that there are other factors at play in fandom. People write stories, create art and vids, and share it freely with each other in fandom - that has nothing to do with buying power. Many publishers have produced zines without making any profit, some have purely given them away, others sell them at what is basically cost, some say that if there is any profit when they finally close their publishing "house", that it will be given to charity. Others, however, seem to be bent on making money by charging prices that do not reflect the price of creation. I've put together "e-zines" - it takes time, it takes care and effort, but that's what fans give to fandom all the time, for free, for the joy of it. What makes those few zine publishers different?

[diegina.livejournal.com]

First of all, I haven't read all the previous 33 replies for this post of yours, so I'm sorry if I start some argue anew, repeat facts or something.

First of all, I've bought several of these downloadable zines from Requiem. Why?

It's damn FAST!
From the minute I've ordered them to the moment I could read them it all took only a few hours. If I remember correctly, it took only one hour in one case. Compared to waiting weeks for a hard copy, it's magic.

It's cheap way how to get the content of the zine! And this is the most important thing for me.
I've bought several printed zines, but... well, to pay $32 per zine (sometimes a bit less when the issue is slimmer) is simply too much for me, especially when almost half of the cost is postage to Europe. And when I see that zine in the end, that little something in plastic binding, I always wonder if the price is really worth it. When I saw Requiem offers some of its zines also in this downloadable version - next to the usual printed version - I didn't hesitate. For me, this is the only affordable way how to get a zine - next to writing for it and get a free trib copy. But I'm still afraid of writing a Pros story in English, not mentioning a story good enough to be published in a printed zine.

Yes, I can't print it. (Well, not officially, but it's nothing even a below-average IT student wouldn't cope with;-P). But I don't mind, all zines I've seen so far are written in too large font anyway, and have too much empty space on all sides. Waste of paper I call it. All of them could be half the size just by half-sizing the used font.
So I don't mind the fact I pay for data and not for paper, I just read the stories from the screen of my laptop, and one day, when I will feel up to it I will print in my own format, the way I like it.

And now to the question "What am I actually paying for?" It seems I pay just for an unprintable file. But there is still that usual printed version of the zine, the one that usually costs the editor much more money then he/she will ever get back from the actual sale. I see it as a way to help to reduce the loss. Also, this form of fanzine is not much popular, so I'm not worried about actual profit. I wouldn't pay for a pure e-zine, but I don't mind paying for this. Because unlike most of you, I have only this choice: either this cheap version of the zine in the form "e-zine" or no zine at all. So am I really that bad guy when I choose to pay?

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Well, firstly there are no "bad guys" or "good guys" in this discussion, as much as things that I'm curious about, and may or may not agree with myself. But someone would have to act really extremely to be a "bad guy" to me! *g*

For me, this is the only affordable way how to get a zine
I do appreciate that it's more affordable than printed zines, and I appreciate that it's a fast way of getting hold of the zine too. What I feel though, is that if print zines were originally a way of sharing stories between fans, and that the cost involved was only ever supposed to cover the cost of the publisher printing and binding them, then it seems strange that publishers are now charge money for something they can do without any cost at all (we all upload stories to the internet) - so why are they charging at all for those downloadable stories? What expenses do they have to cover, without the cost of paper, printing and binding? Why can't you have those stories for free?

I see it as a way to help to reduce the loss.
Okay, so you're saying that you don't mind subsidising the cost of print zines for those people that want them. Even though you can't have them yourself (for the reasons you've said above), you don't mind paying to let other people have them?

the one that usually costs the editor much more money then he/she will ever get back from the actual sale
This is interesting - I've always thought that it was usually the other way around, that print-zine publishers priced their zines so that they always covered their costs, and some seem to price very much higher than that (and apparently some cost in the price of the airfares and registration at conventions, where they then sell the zines too) What is it that makes you think it's more often the other way around?

but it's nothing even a below-average IT student wouldn't cope with
But I'm not even a below-average IT student! And I'm certainly not underconfident with IT, like alot of (especially older) fans. So the question of printing is more important for some people than others, I think...

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I am involved in 'original' zines. One of them is moving towards charging. I have paid for 'original' zines. The charges go towards the purchase and maintenance of the website and domain name - and possibly towards paying the authros a nominal amount for their fic. There are two ways of putting e-fic out there - you can't usually access the fic till you've paid though there might be samples, but only some sites do a 'read only' version and block printing. If you did have one you could print you'd have the worry that other people might print and resell - there'd be absolutely no control. We've had pirated stuff appearing elsewhere from our little zine and it's hard (and time consuming) to deal with.

Having said all that... I would assume, if I accessed an e-site, that the site owners had already sorted all the legal issues and that worries with the web hosts not liking e.g. fanfic were their problem and not mine!

I personally prefer e-fic for all fanfic and a lot of lighter original fic reading - easier to cart about and store! I'd definitely pay for yours, but I'd need to know something about the authros if it was a mixed zine!!

Hope this all adds to the discussion!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the very delayed-action reply to your email - my weekend just kind of slipped past in a haze of deadlines and brain collapse...

See, I think original fiction is a completely different thing - I have no problem with people charging for original e-zines at all (even though I probably wouldn't buy one, cos for me reading is all about curling up with paper in my hand... *g*) There's not the background to fandom, where things are shared freely - I always think of fandom more like an oral society, I suppose. Do people charge to talk about ideas to each other, to tell each other stories? Well yes, some do, and look at all the fuss people make about paying their tv licenses! *g* But in general storytelling (as opposed to publishing original books) has traditionally been free in most (not all) societies.

But then apart from anything else I do hate reading on screen - and since I've been recently in fandom without a printer I think I've been reading stories differently too. In fact now that I have my own little printer, and also access to another (*g*) I'm looking forward to re-reading some of the more recent fic, but on paper this time... I think I sort of read it more on the surface when I read online, somehow...

[fluterbev.livejournal.com]

I just wanted you to know that just about everything you have said throughout this whole debate has resonated with me in a big way. I like the cut of your jib :-).

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

This is an incredibly delayed response, following a weekend of deadlines and car tyres and just stuff, but... thank you! *preens jib* *g*

It's really interesting seeing what other people think about it all, isn't it? I guess some people are just alot more forgiving of the whole fandom/commercial crossover thing, but... I spent years not falling in love with the commercial side of fandom, which was all I knew about, even though I realise now that I've been a fan since I was about six. I just didn't know any other fans... *sniffs sadly* And then I found slash fandom, and the whole culture of just... enjoying the creativity and sharing the lurve and all was like coming home. The way the world should be. Hippidom without compost toilets. I dunno - you know what I mean?!

[moth2fic.livejournal.com]

I just read all the comments (I always do thing backwards) and have realised that people do criticise the cost of paper zines and that the cost of the e-zines appears to be outrageous! I certainly wouldn't pay more (or even as much) for a fanfic zine than I would for e.g. one of Josh's e-books!! Just as, given the amount of fic online, I wouldn't pay more for a printed zine than I would for a printed book. But as somebody else said, readers will vote with their pounds/dollars.

So that rather alters my attitude towards the e-zines!

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Lol - I was astounded to see what some publishers were selling fandom e-zines for - far more than professional authors are charging for their books! It just... doesn't make sense!

[birggitt.livejournal.com]

To me, all this discussion is hypothetical. Because, if you put all your fics in a downloaded e-zine and charge $20 for them, I would never, ever read them.
For those who are living in countries as mine $20 is a big bunch of money (more than you have to pay for a good hard-cover book). An, at that cost? No way.
People who can't go to Conventions, go live, like me, on South America, are fanzine deprived, too.
Cost make them unfordable, and that's a real shame, but is something we learn to live with.
I print my fics, and bind them , but is not the same. So, if I could, I'd buy every single zine that's around. I believe is just fair to pay for them, as they cost money to the person who actually put them together. Let's not talk about work, and stress, and hours of their time.
E-zines, OTOH, should be for free. There's not cost involved, only fannish work. And, if we are gonna pay for fannish work, I'd prefer to give my money to authors *shrugs* Just my two cents :)

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

This is all a hypothetical question, but you're definitely adding another layer to it - the "rich" kids playing in the rich countries...

I totally agree, US$20 is alot of money, and so much more than an actual professionally published book costs! I do understand that it costs small publishers more money to actually publish zines (and books for that matter) but I don't think that has to be the case...

I believe is just fair to pay for them, as they cost money to the person who actually put them together. Let's not talk about work, and stress, and hours of their time.
Hmmn, but what about all the work, stress and hours of my time that I put into writing fic? And running websites? And lj comms? Should I be paid for that then?